um...moral question (of sorts)

[draco dormiens]

Okay. So, a girl likes me (that's novel in and of itself, really). She goes to my school, and we've been getting to know each other, but only as friends, for the past week. She told me she liked me tonight. And I feel the same way, honestly. So I told her that. I'd been willing myself not to feel that way because I knew she was unavailable and all that...but this changes things. A lot.

Just a few problems:

1. she's got a girlfriend, but things haven't been going so well for a while. she was upset tonight. I stayed away from telling her what she should do. I tried my damndest to stay away from that.
2. I'm not exactly unattached, myself. She does know this. I feel guilty, on one hand. But I always said that at this point, I wouldn't turn down any possibility that seemed promising. I was just banking on a total lack of options here.
3. I feel like a kid, honestly. I know nothing. Like, nothing. At all. I'm a bundle of nerves...

Help. images/smiley_icons/icon_eek.gif

Edited for clarity.

[Quixote]

I say - ride the exciting mutual attraction wave for a while without anything more happening. If there comes a time soon when you are both available to be dating then go for it then. Meanwhile, just have fun flirting.

[draco dormiens]

My situation is more easily resolved than hers is, I'll admit. I don't feel great about it, but my friends are telling me that I need to move on, as it were.

I think I'll do just what you said, Q. It makes more sense than the other options I was considering.

[Lepus]

I agree with Q. I agree with you as well that you have to move on.

Wait for her to get out of this relationship, give her some time to grieve and then see what happens.

[draco dormiens]

Shit, I don't wanna move on. I really don't; it's unseemly. My friends beg to differ, however. They're of the opinion that a month and a half of hearing nothing is excessive. I say there could be extenuating circumstances.

And I wouldn't have any luck if it weren't for bad luck. She said she likes me too much to hurt me. Sheesh. images/smiley_icons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Meh, whatever.

Oh, and she said they may work things out. For all my efforts to get rid of bullshit in my life, I sure seem to have quite a bit more of it now than I ever have.

[Lepus]

I don't think it is just a matter of not hearing from her. Of course there is a high likelihood of extenuating circumstances in her situation.

But there are so many other reasons why it is time to put that relationship to rest, Drac.

I would just like to see you having some fun and getting out there dating. You're young, intelligent, good looking and there is no reason you should be waiting on a fairytale. You have too much to offer.

It isn't unseemly to move on in this situation. Listen to your friends.

I'm sorry, Drac.

[draco dormiens]

Okay. I did it. It wasn't easy. It still isn't.

And about the other situation: um...well, there was a lot of touching and all that today. After that, she just said 'that was almost cheating' or something to that effect. Earlier, one of the other workers in the storeroom asked her if she liked me (yeah, in that way) and she said she did. She's told me that point-blank, in person. She wanted me to walk her to her car, so I did. She said all that is going to make it awkward for her when she's with her girlfriend tonight. She wants me to come visit her at work tomorrow. And she gets online to see if I'm around to talk.

I've already asked her not to yank my chain too hard. I think I made my point clear, but I went ahead and emailed her too.

I don't know. The only thing I do know is that I had a hell of a time today. I guess that's all that counts.

[absent]

I'd wait for her to deal with her other relationship - whether that dealing with was ending it or discussing it with her partner and developing it into an open relationship... Sounds like the footing is very rocky and uncertain - sounds like serious drama potential. Step cautiously.

[miss_s]

Cheers to what abs said.

[draco dormiens]

Yeah...that whole thing ended badly. Like, me in tears and refusing to talk to her until I was forced to and her puking something like 7 times yesterday.

The short version of this is in the 'what do you hate' thread.

She said that she was going to 'deal with the situation' but that her girlfriend was a 'large part of it' (one of those 'well no shit, Sherlock' statements, imho). Yesterday, she told me she was going to stay with her girlfriend. I walked away. She called me over a dozen times; after the first two I turned my phone off. I went to a friend's room. This friend answered my cell phone (I turned it on again, since it's the only way my parents have of contacting me) when she called again and told her where we were. My friend also wouldn't let me leave, saying that I needed at least to tell her to her face that she hurt me and that I needed to hear K (the girl) tell her side of it.

I would rather have let her suffer, because I knew her well enough to know that not talking to her would be far more effective in torturing her. I refused to talk to her for a few minutes when she came in the room.

And then she cried...so I gave in and talked for a bit. I came back with her. She explained the postcard (the way she had conveyed the news that she was staying with her gf) and kept emphasizing how much she likes me and so on...wouldn't get to the ultimate point (she's staying with her gf and it'll be a long-term thing) until I got fed up and just asked what the overriding truth would be. And then she had the temerity to ask me 'well I can still like you, right?' and if I wanted to meet her girlfriend that evening.

I wouldn't let her touch me. She made me promise to walk her to her class. I knew I couldn't do it but I said I would just to shut her up. I texted her later on asking for time and saying I couldn't do it. She didn't quite get that I didn't want to see her then and waited for me until she was late for a class she had to make a presentation for.

We talked some over AIM after I'd gotten the space I needed and slept off the rest of the anger and pain. She kept leaving the computer to go puke, apparently.

Oh, and I learned that she's cheated on her girlfriend before. I suppose the statement 'R knows when I'm close to cheating on her' should have been a pretty big red flag. Someone else familiar with the situation says that I really dodged a bullet there, and I have to agree. She also says that she was 'yay close to falling in love' with me. She's also got many, many issues. Another reason I dodged a bullet, I suppose. As two others have told me, I have enough psychological problems as it is. Why add to them?

We're still friends, however. I'm pretty much over it, and I don't think I'd ever date her. I couldn't ever do the open relationship thing, either. Given the level of my reaction yesterday (which included throwing things, two dangerously close to someone, and refusing to be anywhere near her for a good while) and the subsequent shutdown, I don't need the drama. And that's what she's been for the past week or so. So I think I will heed the words of my friends; they were right and I was too stubborn to listen to them. I need someone who wants me and who doesn't have any issues that I will have to fight against, because that sort of shit is futile. I still do not think my reaction was out of line or unreasonable.

And I'm discovering the song Fuck It is pretty damn good.

[Lepus]

Sorry, Drac.

I agree with this line though:

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I need someone who wants me and who doesn't have any issues that I will have to fight against, because that sort of shit is futile.
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Amen.

[draco dormiens]

Erm...so about that whole not wanting an open relationship thing...

I saw her tonight. Long story short, she ended up kissing me.

We've talked about it and the ramifications of it and came to an agreement:

1. I keep my mouth shut about this, even to my closest friends (um, too late, heh). She doesn't want them hating me. I assume this means that she doesn't tell her gf, either.
2. No strings attached. We know this is going nowhere but we're both mutually attracted to each other. I'm a newbie at all of this, so the instructive experience will be good (and lots of fun, too).
3. No sex without further discussion/conditions (my condition being that she leaves her gf before anything happens).

Does this sound good, or is there something else I should have had specified?

[Lepus]

It sounds like crap. You're better than this, Drac.

Don't get involved until she is out of her relationship. In fact, don't get involved. There are a lot of red flags with this girl.

She's cheating. She's hurting someone else's feelings and damaging their trust. Don't help her.

Don't use her to gain experience either.

Walk away.

/sermon

[Quixote]

I agree. Find someone that won't end up hurting you and others.

[Misch]

Sorry, but this sounds like it's going to end in disaster. Like Lepus said, you deserve better. It might be enjoyable right now, but drama IS going to happen later on. If she is willing to end her relationship, heal & then explore the option of dating you...well, that is something to think about.

I know it must be really tempting but it's trouble.

[kcirref]

I think it's clear this situation is already a disaster and full of drama. Draco, follow your instincts and bail before this ship goes down in flames.

[miss_s]

I am just an echo.

C, sometimes passion doesn't cut it. Get out and find someone healthy. I'm sure that she has many good qualities, but for each of the reasons stated above, she's not the person to get involved with. Let her go and figure her stuff out on her own.

PS We really really like you. You deserve a girlfriend who does too.

[absent]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">draco dormiens wrote on Wed, 14 September 2005 23:11</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
...
Does this sound good, or is there something else I should have had specified?
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Honesty. It's not an open relationship - she's cheating on her girlfriend. This is a toxic recipe. I agree with the others - cut and run. Or at least walk.

[Caffeinated]

I have nothing new to add, but wanted to add to the number telling you:

1. You deserve better than this
2. You know cheating will hurt her gf, and you are helping with that
3. You both know what you are doing is wrong, or you wouldn't be hiding it
4. Open relationships have honesty and trust, this has neither
5. You deserve more - I know I already said this, but it needs repeating

Don't be that person, Drac, just don't.

[draco dormiens]

Okay, yeah.

Morality aside, I can't date her. She's got more baggage than a convoy of flaming twinks going on a cruise to the Bahamas. I'll try to step away from the hooking up part of it, but that'll be the hardest part of all. And I may not succeed in doing that (I decided to give in to my desires initially), but the more I learn about her, the easier it will get to step away.

The really hard part will be if I feel I have to break off contact with her. She's been the center of more drama in the past two and a half weeks than I've had in the past year, truth be told. I already know she won't leave me alone initially; it's just a question of how long it would take for her to do so. I don't think that will be a problem, though. She's hella cute and a lot of fun and she enjoys my company.

[Caffeinated]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">draco dormiens wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 23:13</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
She's hella cute and a lot of fun and she enjoys my company.
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And somebody else, worthy of your time and heart, will too.
Walk away, don't look back.

[draco dormiens]

I'm trying...sort of. It's scary to say this, but I feel like I've lost control of so many things. Everything I'd worked hard over the summer for, I'm throwing away. I need time away from it all. But I can't get that time. Just like on Monday, if I try to take that time, then she will not allow me to have it because she'll see it as a personal slight. I can't even say the smallest things without her taking them personally. And it's fun to fuck around with that, but not fun to have to constantly explain yourself. It's not fun to feel like a fuckup, even if you are autistic or whatever the hell is wrong with me.
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(20:53:41) SibylVane06: hope you didn't like write them down
(20:53:49) SibylVane06: THAT would be weird
(20:54:13) DracoDormiens13: nope. like i said, i have enough trouble keeping up with regular class readings. so the vast majority of my reading is done online
(20:54:26) SibylVane06: no, I meant: so you can stalk me via library account
(20:54:33) DracoDormiens13: nah, not that interested
(20:54:58) DracoDormiens13: there may be some people i'd do that for, but it's pretty rare for me to go that far
(20:55:25) SibylVane06: glad I've made my way down the common people in your mind
(20:55:33) DracoDormiens13: did i say that?
(20:55:48) SibylVane06: not technically

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The sad part is that she meant that. She was truly offended by any implication that she has decreased in importance in my life. The more I think about it, the more this reads like a textbook case of codependence, and I'm trapped in it.

The worst part of all is that if I do anything that hurts her, she knows a lot of the same people I used to live with/know on sight and is good friends with them. This sounds so high-school, but I'm already thought of as, at best, a weirdo, and at worst a stand-offish bitch (courtesy of someone else I had a falling out with). It bugs me to know that I haven't managed to pull off being normal as well as I thought I had.

And I'm thisclose to cracking.

[absent]

Sounds a little like you're losing perspective - losing track of yourself. Take a step back. Spend some time ALONE - don't answer her calls / emails etc, let her know you need a couple days (if she can't deal with that - the writing is on the wall in international orange) - take yourself out for some coffee - go for a long walk - come home do something you like - get back inside YOUR head and do what's right for you.

[Lepus]

You barely have anything invested in this person, Drac. I don't understand why you are putting up with the bullshit. Maybe that is the real issue you should be examining.

[draco dormiens]

I'm back. And I cracked. I knew I wasn't going to get a break without a lot of hassle, and I tend to be reckless when I'm depressed and under a lot of stress, so I went to a hospital. I think my words were just a little too prophetic...

But I'm fine now. I feel a lot better than I did before; that is the point of it, after all.

I checked my inbox; she'd said she sent me email. I couldn't get through all 5 of them without being physically ill, so I didn't. Fucking guilt trip and everything...almost like having a stalker. I'm willing to give it another go, but I am setting iron-clad conditions. No touching. Nothing sexual at all. And time spent limited to an hour a week, as opposed to at least 12 per week like it was before. And if there's more bullshit, then that's it. Why I am doing this, I don't know. My mother says it's because I tend to be 'too softhearted'.

[absent]

<table border="0" align="center" width="90%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td class="SmallText">draco dormiens wrote on Mon, 26 September 2005 16:40</td></tr><tr><td class="quote">
I'm back. And I cracked. I knew I wasn't going to get a break without a lot of hassle, and I tend to be reckless when I'm depressed and under a lot of stress, so I went to a hospital. I think my words were just a little too prophetic...

But I'm fine now. I feel a lot better than I did before; that is the point of it, after all.

I checked my inbox; she'd said she sent me email. I couldn't get through all 5 of them without being physically ill, so I didn't. Fucking guilt trip and everything...almost like having a stalker. I'm willing to give it another go, but I am setting iron-clad conditions. No touching. Nothing sexual at all. And time spent limited to an hour a week, as opposed to at least 12 per week like it was before. And if there's more bullshit, then that's it. Why I am doing this, I don't know. My mother says it's because I tend to be 'too softhearted'.
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Oh Drac. Please don't. This doesn't sound healthy for you at all.

[Lepus]

You were in the hospital? Glad you are out and okay (?).

But please Drac, get away from her. I know you are going to do what you want anyway but this is bad, bad news.

A good relationship doesn't have so many restrictions nor does it land you in the hospital!

Are you seeing a counselor?

[draco dormiens]

Yeah, I'm seeing a counselor. I've been in counseling for nearly a year now. She wasn't the only factor in this, but she was the major one. Or, to quote my best friend, 'She didn't put you in there, you put you in there.' I see your points, but...

Anyway, I'm fine now. My mom wants me to take the semester off since I have already been granted medical leave. The psychiatrist at the hospital encouraged that, too, but I strongly wish to finish the semester. I know I can, too. While this episode had the greatest consequences because I didn't bother hiding anything from my family, it actually wasn't the worst. I went into the hospital so that I wouldn't throw away everything I worked so hard for during the summer.

[Lepus]

In this case, I think you know yourself and what you can handle better than the doctors. If you think you can make it through the semester without harming yourself then do it. I took a medical leave once and it took me a year to get back.

However, I see one major advantage to going back home - you won't be near her.

If you stay I think you need to stay away from her. Be a bitch, be whatever but she is not good for you.

Drac, you're starting to head down a bad road. With your therapist's aid, please try to choose a different path in terms of your relationships. I don't care if you have Asperger's, Folger's or ADHD or whatever. You still deserve good relationships with friends and lovers.

Here's some constructive criticism: QUIT DEVALUING YOURSELF!

How? I have no fucking clue but you could start by not having a relationship with this woman on any level.

[draco dormiens]

I did it. No one is worth all of this. I don't regret any of the physical stuff, nor will I ever regret it. Had it truly been no strings attached, then I could have dealt with that and not ended up in a hospital. Anyway, here's the email:

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This should have been said a long time ago. But I didn't have the courage to do so.

Honestly, since I have been friends with you, I have had some of the best times of my life, but also the worst. The latter seems to have been the more dominant theme in the past two weeks and probably before then. There's been more drama in my life during this month than I've had in the past year. Some of it is my fault; this month has brought out the best and worst in me. I've been a passive-aggressive bitch a lot of times and I have deliberately said and done things to hurt you. I accept all of that.

This isn't healthy for me. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford to be overly concerned with that. I've thought it over. And yes, I have gotten advice from others. I am capable of independent thought, but it is always good to have an objective viewpoint, which is why I asked someone who knows me very
well, but who is in no way connected with Vanderbilt. I was prepared to just continue thinking she's wrong, but she has been right for this entire month.
The others I asked are also in no way connected to Vanderbilt but do not know me as well. They said the same thing and predicted the result even before I got too ensnared. I've been wrong for this whole month. I trusted too much and too soon. I allowed myself to be used. I didn't respect my own goddamned boundaries. And most of all, I was kicked in the teeth and willingly kept coming back for more, all with a shit-eating smile on my face. I have done things out of a misplaced sense of obligation and just have been stupid in general. And why? Because I didn't have enough self-respect to know when enough is enough, because I allowed my feelings to be subverted and written off as 'thinking too much' and 'taking too much seriously'. In one of your prior emails, you said that I didn't do anything to stop the physical contact we did have. You're right. I don't regret any of that now, and I never will. But saying no early on would have saved me a lot of trouble and grief.

You may ask why I'm writing this when we have already discussed so much. I'm writing this because I never told you the full truth. A lot of it was unknown to me, and I was convinced that the rest of it wasn't true, that this situation wasn't what it seemed to anyone else with half a brain. And I am writing this
to tell you that unless you stop using me for emotional release all the time, unless I am allowed my own space and get the truth when I ask for it, and unless this truly becomes a friendship with nothing more attached to it, then I can't do this anymore. There is no hatred or negativity on my part. I am reluctant to do this because you did make me happy, but also extremely self-conscious and more inept than I already know I am. I don't want to do this partly out of a shallow concern about how yet another person associated with McGill will think of me as a cold-hearted bitch, and partly because I wish that I could feel comfortable saying that we've made amends and things are relatively fine. The former is something I will gladly deal with in exchange for getting my self-respect back and the latter is just a something I will have to deal with until it no longer matters.

I've been at the center of a lot of your problems, too, lately. Perhaps you are better off without me, or at least without me being so close. I used to think that no matter how much one has invested in any relationship, platonic or otherwise, that if it becomes unhealthy, then the connection must be severed. The time and effort spent are, to put it in economic terms, sunk costs. Neither can be recovered, so they cannot factor into any decision about the future. I was a happier person when I strictly adhered to that rule. I am now making the first step toward practicing it again.

This email has several purposes. First, it is to free myself from the guilt of not being entirely forthcoming in my thoughts about this. Second, it is to offer the possibility of actually making this healthy for both of us Third, it is to explain my rationale for why I am doing this now. I hate doing this, all of it. Yet it is necessary for my well-being.
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